Date: 17/11/2024
Place: Trondheim, Norway
Desiderii Marginis is not just one of the longest-standing dark ambient artists, but also one of the acts that got me into this music in the first place (I listened to The Ever Green Tree like a man possessed back in high school). Therefore, when I heard that Johan Levin, the mastermind behind the project, would be joining the lineup of Blåsvart Aften #15 to mark Svartsinn's 25th anniversary in Trondheim, it didn't take long for me to make travel arrangements and set off to the suitably grim and frostbitten central Norway. I hadn't actually spoken to Johan in person since 2012, when I visited him in his hometown of Linköping, Sweden for an interview, so I thought I'd use this opportunity to do another one, 12 years later, and he graciously accepted.
Now, Desiderii Marginis was never particularly interested in respecting genre conventions (if such a thing even exists), and one of the aspects in which this is made obvious are the visual backdrops that Johan uses for his live performances. These go from abstract chiaroscuro visuals of unknown substances, over human interactions and recordings of religious processions, to abandoned buildings and dilapidated churches - all to stunning effect. Having seen Desiderii Marginis live twice this year (a rare treat), I was exceedingly curious about how all of these sublimate in Johan's mind.
Johan: I've always found the clash of substances between the music and the visuals to be very interesting. Combining two elements that are not necessarily supposed to come together often produces unexpected synergies that make them reinforce each other in strange ways. I work in much the same way when it comes to music - combining opposing sounds or even opposing topics while creating the concept of an album. I enjoy finding similarities in elements that are not obvious, especially when it's a thought that randomly occurs to me and it's difficult to tell where it comes from. Of course, it's just as important to determine if this opposition actually works, if people will pick up on the similarities or the common denominator in these elements. I'm not afraid of trashing something and starting from scratch if I find that it ultimately doesn't work.
An additional complication in the creation of a live performance is curating both of these elements - music and visuals - especially with such an extensive back catalogue as the one of Desiderii Marginis. It came as no surprise that Johan approaches this just as meticulously as anything else.
Johan: When planning a performance, I always start from what the general setting is going to be. What is the venue like? Is it a bigger club-like space or a smaller, more intimate one? What other artists are in the lineup and who is likely to be in the audience? Should I go with something calmer or something more energetic? These are all questions I ask myself when picking tracks that fit into the atmosphere I'm trying to achieve. I enjoy representing a diverse range of emotional settings in my work, but I also try to make it all fit together; I don't usually pass from very contemplative tracks into noisier ones and vice versa. My goal is ultimately to create a complete experience that is uniform in a way.
While this is great for one-off performances, this approach seems very difficult to adapt to a full-blown tour, such as the European one that Desiderii Marginis embarked on together with Raison d'Etre and Brighter Death Now last spring, with every venue being different than the last one.
Johan: Obviously, I had to put the set together to be the same for the entire tour, but that doesn't mean I couldn't make the necessary preparations. I knew it was the same lineup for all venues, I knew I would be opening every night, just as I knew that Brighter Death Now would be headlining every night. Knowing that the latter tends to use a lot of harsh noises and dark industrial harmonics, I wanted to create a somewhat calmer set and make it into an experience of increasing intensity for the audience. Of course, I also tried to incorporate tracks from the new album, both because playing them live was new to me and because I wanted to play something that people didn't necessarily hear before.
That last comment brings us back to Desiderii Marginis' back catalogue and the fact that Johan has been active in the scene for more than 30 years now. As the occasion for our meeting was Svartsinn's 25th anniversary, it was only natural to inquire whether Johan had any particular reflections on his own career milestones and longevity.
Johan: I rarely sit and think about my musical career in this way, but I suppose I feel fortunate more than anything else. Whenever people remind me of it, I just feel grateful to have had the possibility to continue doing something I truly love for such a long time. I especially appreciate revisiting the same places over the years - I find that becoming aware of the passage of time and everything that has happened since the previous visit gives a very valuable perspective. It's also great to see familiar faces again. Look at our example: it's been, what, 12 or 13 years since we last saw each other? Yet the feeling remains the same, as if we're picking up from the exact moment where we left off. One might be surprised at how easy it is to reconnect with like-minded people, at least those that are open to it.
One specific comment that Johan made in passing during one of our discussions in Trondheim left me somewhat astounded. He said that he always has a very clear concept of his next album before he even starts composing it. This creative process is rather at odds with any other dark ambient artist I've spoken to.
Johan: [laughs] It is, it is. However, that's just how I developed my manner of working. I prefer when things are structured and I get to lay out the rules. Well, maybe not rules, but certainly guidelines, because it makes the creative process more interesting for me. It would be a piece of cake for me to just sit down in my studio and make a dark ambient track - I could do that in my sleep. I wouldn't find that very motivating, though, because it would happen in an almost automatic way and perhaps without the certain substance that I'm seeking.
This begs the question of how that substance is determined and what constitutes the core around which an album starts to accrete.
Johan: The starting point is always what has been bothering me or occupying my mind the most in the previous period. This introspective process makes me realise that I have a lot of impressions, emotions, feelings and ideas from all kinds of places. Once these are gathered, so to speak, that's the moment in which I decide which direction I want to take it in. Transforming these elements that are sometimes conflicting - as we discussed before - into music is when I really feel I need to make a proper effort. It's more challenging this way for sure, but also more rewarding, because you really need to push yourself to meld all of your ideas into music. That's how I keep myself motivated; I don't sit around waiting for inspiration, because it may never come on its own.
That certainly explains why Desiderii Marginis tends to release new albums at fairly regular intervals, unlike other artists who may do three releases in one year and then disappear for a decade.
Johan: It was really around the release of Hypnosis that I fully developed this approach. I found myself wanting to make new music, but without the kind of inspiration that had previously been driving me. This was reinforced by other fellow artists I spoke to, who around that time hadn't put out a new album for 5-6 years for the same reason. That's when I told myself that I need to operate as a professional artist. A true painter doesn't wait for inspiration, he gets up at 8 in the morning and just paints, whether he has an idea or not, because he has a need to paint. Motivating yourself to create because you know you can - that became my motto.
A professional musician - not something that you'd hear many dark ambient artists describe themselves as, considering that the genre is not exactly lucrative.
Johan: I wouldn't describe myself that way either, but I think it's a good idea to learn from professional artists, whoever they are: sculptors, painters etc. You can always learn from people who have been doing something for a very long time. Even if you can't pick up on everything they do creatively and artistically, you can still learn about what keeps them going and how they keep the creative rivers flowing so that they don't end up stuck waiting for things to come to them. You need to be the catalyst for your own creativity.
I was curious whether this kind of seemingly unstoppable work ethic means that there is a lot of audio material stockpiled somewhere in the archives of Desiderii Marginis.
Johan: I do not have a pile of complete tracks sitting around, if that's what you mean. There are some unreleased ones, but it's not a huge folder or anything. That said, I do have a lot of unused sound material in a sizeable library that I might eventually use (or not). I try to work really intensely with the material that I do have, and if I'm not happy with something, I try to rework it rather than discard it. When I work with something, it just snowballs and I get completely absorbed by it; sometimes I'll spend 18 straight hours in the studio without eating or drinking, oblivious to the world.
Johan previously mentioned how his approach to creating music changed before the release of Hypnosis. Interestingly enough, I've always had the impression that his music got darker and more contemplative around this time as well, at least compared to the previous 3-4 albums. I mean, it's a pretty big jump from an album like Procession to Hypnosis.
Johan: I never made any conscious decision to change the flow of the music to darker, lighter or more contemplative. What did change around that time is that I became willing to give tracks and sounds more time and space to evolve. It made the process more drawn out, but also enabled me to work differently with dynamics. That last one was definitely a conscious decision.
Taking into account all of the above and the fact that Bathe in Black Light originally came out more than three years ago, a fan ought to wonder whether a new Desiderii Marginis release is on the horizon.
Johan: I don't work on a particular timeline, but I've decided I'm going to work on new material over the coming winter and early spring - it's the season to be indoors, after all. I plan to record the new Desiderii Marginis album, but also an interesting side project I've got going on. Of course, getting the material recorded is one thing, and getting it actually released is another; that's where record labels and schedules come into play. For me, once the music is recorded, it's very important to have it released as quickly as possible so that I can mentally liberate the space for the next thing. Not because of what other people will think about it - I make music solely for my own satisfaction - but because ultimately, music is made to be listened to, just like any artist wants to present their work to other people. That also unlocks new conversations, like the one we're having right now, which is another phase of the creative process that I find rewarding.
It also unlocks the possibility of new live performances, even though dark ambient musicians are hardly the ones to go on world tours. I have the impression that Johan is certainly among the more prominent scene members when it comes to playing live, despite having a day job.
Johan: I actually keep a record of all my live performances and I've done around 90 in total up to now. For me, it's the perfect amount. It's really interesting to embark on occasional tours, like the one we did last spring and which spanned 14 cities all over Europe, but it's not something you can do every year. Contrary to what you'd expect, to me these tours become less and less exhausting as they go on. You initially find yourself in a new situation, almost like a touring band, which all of us are not necessarily accustomed to, but then you somehow get into it and it stops being a problem. There's this routine to how your day is structured that you get used to. Funnily enough, at the end of the tour, all of us agreed that we would happily have continued for another week, given the opportunity. Humans are so incredibly adaptive.
I dare add that the latter really depends on the humans.
Johan: [laughs] Indeed it does, but I've known the guys from this tour since forever. I feel really blessed when people ask you to come and perform your music, and that they want to invest time and effort into something that you have created. This always makes me feel grateful for the opportunity to perform live, especially since it's such a different experience compared to hearing the music on the record. It gets more overwhelming, it saturates your mind in a different way when you hear it live.
Actually, I've found that one of the more common criticisms aimed at dark ambient, especially from those who do not necessarily appreciate the genre, is that live performances don't make much sense when it's just a guy sitting in front of his laptop and some equipment.
Johan: I think it mainly comes from people unfamiliar with the way electronic music operates in a live setting, whether it's dark ambient, post-industrial or something else. I also note that this was a lot more common 15-20 years ago, when people didn't know what to expect. I believe that today the format is rather set and that people know what kind of experience they're going to witness. In fact, one of the things I appreciate the most about dark ambient shows is that the focus is truly on the music and the visuals rather than on the performing musician. It's a whole experience rather than people-focused, such as when you have a lead singer under the spotlight centre-stage.
Since we started the conversation with live performances and circled back to them, I was interested in whether Johan has any particularly vivid experiences or memories to share related to playing live.
Johan: I once played in a Lithuanian Soviet-era bunker without any heating.
Well, that certainly qualifies.
Johan: And that's not even the weirdest. Once I played in this really strange kind of barn in Saint Petersburg that was used for square dancing. I even played at the YMCA in Malmö; that was my third show ever, and we were surrounded by portraits of muscular sailors on the walls of the room. It really changes the performance itself as well. If you play this music really loud in a Soviet-era bunker, of course it's going to be perceived as a lot more dark, ominous and obscure than it really is. However, when you play in a café or similar, people tend to pick up on the more subtle elements of the music. It's really all kinds of places, big and small, and you never know what to expect. It's part of the charm.
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